Following the success of our last Three Things podcast episode with former MADE.com CEO, Nicola Thompson, we were delighted to welcome the brilliant Adam Balon to the hotseat this month.
In his very first podcast appearance, the innocent co-founder takes us beyond the legendary innocent story and into his current venture as the co-founder of JamJar Investments. In a time of dwindling business valuations and tight purse strings, this is a must-listen for any founder or CEO looking to secure funding.
With less capital available and due diligence making a return to prominence, rapid deals are no longer on the table for founders. Instead, Adam emphasises that they must be frugal, honest, and able to show they can execute their vision.
Join us as one of the most successful founders of his generation guides us through the new norms of entrepreneurship and investment, which – as always – is rounded off with his Three Things advice.
Following the success of our last Three Things podcast episode with former MADE.com CEO, Nicola Thompson, we were delighted to welcome the brilliant Adam Balon to the hotseat this month.
In his very first podcast appearance, the innocent co-founder takes us beyond the legendary innocent story and into his current venture as the co-founder of JamJar Investments. In a time of dwindling business valuations and tight purse strings, this is a must-listen for any founder or CEO looking to secure funding.
With less capital available and due diligence making a return to prominence, rapid deals are no longer on the table for founders. Instead, Adam emphasises that they must be frugal, honest, and able to show they can execute their vision.
Join us as one of the most successful founders of his generation guides us through the new norms of entrepreneurship and investment, which – as always – is rounded off with his Three Things advice.
it can be a service, it can be an app, can be a financial service. It doesn't, doesn't matter. it's the magic that comes from solving a consumer problem and doing it in a way with a brand that makes people, gives people moments of delight is, the bit that unlocks, the magic. smarts in of itself isn't enough. we love people who, who are clear when they know stuff and when they don't know stuff and are, are confident enough to be able to say, I don't know this, but I'm going to work it out. In a time where money has been. Relatively easy to raise. People haven't worried about the execution too much cuz money can fix a lot of things. And actually that is no longer the case I think there's definitely enough, funding, I think it's just behaving in a very different way to, how behave for the last 10 years. it's not like it's terrible time for, for founders actually. I think for a certain type of founder, it's a much better time.
Jamie:much better time.
Adam:Definitely.
Jamie:Hello, I'm Jamie Mitchell and welcome to All Together's Three things where I get the pleasure of talking with, some extraordinary founders and CEOs, and explore a little bit about their story and career and ask for their three things. And this is a very unusual one for me because today in the hot seat, Mr. Adam Ballon, co-founder of Innocent and Co-founder of Jam Jar Investments, and it's unusual because although I have a connection with most of my guests, not all of them, I haven't, had a conversation with someone who is such a good friend, who I've known since I was 18, for goodness sake, and who I've worked with. Worked out four different organizations. so we'll see how this goes. Welcome.
Adam:Thank you, Jamie.
Jamie:it's also unusual because if you've done a podcast before, I couldn't find it.
Adam:I don't think I've done a podcast before. That's why,
Jamie:Now people will have asked you,
Adam:yes, probably.
Jamie:And you've said no.
Adam:politely.
Jamie:and why.
Adam:I don't know, really. I, I can always find things that I feel I sh should be doing that feel like they're more important.
Jamie:and Perhaps also for the last however many years you've had Richard alongside you to do most of the front facing
Adam:That's a, that's a good point. Work-wise, he, he likes these sorts of things and I, I, I like other things. but it's nice to be here, Jamie,
Jamie:Well, and, and, and of course, I, I appreciate you breaking your No podcast, no interviews. No, no. Whatever rule that you
Adam:It wasn't a rule to be fair. It's just the way it's worked out. But,
Jamie:but it is, it is, it is for a good cause because of, of course, you are one of the founding volunteer advisors at Altogether, which, essentially involved me calling you up one day saying, you're right on you. If I slap your name up on this thing,
Adam:maybe an opera I couldn't refuse
Jamie:exactly in the middle of, in the middle of the first few weeks of lockdown. and I'm hugely appreciative of that and your time for our community. So, look, We're not gonna talk about innocent that much today. because I've covered that. When I did Douglas, but equally because I want to talk more about today, I wanna talk more about this, the, the investment world we're in. I wanna talk about Jam jar and I wanna understand that journey. forget the journey to, you know, we often talk about childhood and first jobs and all that kind of stuff. not just cause I know it and I was there. Yeah. but for other reasons really, your two big things really, of course, are innocent. And now Jam Jar is an investor. So I wanna start with this question. And this wasn't in the
Adam:press. No, this wasn't, I'm slightly
Jamie:Richard, John and Adam walk into this room today, day put down their business plan to you. Are you gonna invest?
Adam:Huh? I'd hope so.
Jamie:You'd hope so.
Adam:I
Jamie:The business plan is the same one that you've presented to Morris Pinto all those years ago.
Adam:Yeah. To be honest, I've looked, I've looked through that relatively recently. It was quite, it was quite a good plan. It was, we'd done a lot of work on it. but the problem was none of us had much experience in the area that we were, were in. but actually we'd, we'd spent a lot of time thinking through what we knew, what we didn't know, and thinking through what the big issues were. And I think the plan was actually pretty good. we don't see plans, we don't see plans like that these days. No,
Jamie:No, I'm sure you don't because I suspect years of work or at least of person hours went into it. a and there was quite a lot of time thinking about it, but let's, you know, let's just unpick this a little bit. You're, you are, I genuinely want you to imagine Yeah. The, the, the founders that walk through the door today and you guys walking through the door. What would you, what would you definitely be jumping up and now and going, there's something interesting here about this. A and what would you be going this, this is,
Adam:so what, what do we look for? The first thing we look for is team. and actually I think we, we've proven we make a good team. we care about the same things, big picture, but we go about things in a different way and think about things in a different way, which I think is, such an important part of, of any team. So I think that we would tick our first box, very clearly. And indeed the reason we look for that is probably come from our own experience, that that's how it's worked really well for us.
Jamie:It's interesting, isn't it, because you absolutely have that kind of, as a team then and as a team now, although you have expanded that team to include Katie who adds something very important actually. Yeah. to, to you guys as investors. But back then you really did do that. You've got one person who spikes on, you know, the customer and, and marketing got one operationally nerdy, you know, into the, into the detailed John, and, and then you were sort of deals and commercial and you liked the sort of analysis that went behind that, but no one was in charge. How did you, how do you feel about that today? When people come in and they say, oh, we don't need one of us in charge.
Adam:Well, we I, I suppose we would probably give people more, leeway because we had that model, but theoretically, you know, if we are constrict to ourselves, we, we would probably want a CEO even, if, if actually, most decisions are made jointly between the three of them or four of them, whatever the number of founder might be. So I think, I think we would probably want that, although I don't think we'd be as definite on that because Morris wasn't for us, frankly, and it worked.
Jamie:He, he was, he was such a, a brilliant investor to get on board. For people who don't know the story, and we're not going through the story, but background wise, you had one angel investor put in 250 grand on day one. And. That lasted you for however many
Adam:Yeah. 10 years. And he made a hun more than a hundred times his money when, when finally sold. So he, he
Jamie:and indeed built a hundred million pound business, you know, so, they don't do it like that these days. well, we'll talk about that, I guess a little bit. So, okay, so you go, you guys come in, you are impressed by the team. You are young, though.
Adam:young young experience. Yeah. So, so I don't youth, I think we, we see young teams that's, you know, that's never a downside in and of itself. The only issue is if you're very young and you've got absolutely no experience in the area you're in, that's, that's more of an issue. So,
Jamie:but you, built the business early on incident on naive intelligence.
Adam:Yes. And naivety could be hugely, hugely useful because, Hugers sometimes wouldn't go into an industry if you knew too much about it. you know, food and drink industry is, we now know really hard. it's really hard to make money in. And so we are very cautious, actually, ironically, about investing in food and drink because we know how tough it is to get great margins. You can come up with a great idea of product, but once you start distributing through supermarkets, you're into, you know, it's a, it's a hard gig.
Jamie:so, so your investment approach today, you're very much focused on consumer businesses. Absolutely. but beyond, beyond that, your, your industry agnostic.
Adam:Yeah, it's consumer not in the traditional sense that consumer goods, but anything with a consumer brand. So it can be a service, it can be an app, can be a financial service. It doesn't, doesn't matter. and, and I think that's important because we think it's the, it's the, the magic that comes from solving a consumer problem and doing it in a way with a brand that makes people, gives people moments of delight is, is the sort of the, the bit that unlocks, hopefully the, the magic.
Jamie:And in terms. Stage of companies that you invested in, how early are you, getting into businesses, and how late do you sometimes get into businesses?
Adam:So, we'll, we'll, invest on the back of a idea, a piece of paper. but probably if the entrepreneur or entrepreneurial team has got experience in that area, I think first time through with a blank sheet of paper, we'd find it hard. And that's where we would've, put a blank mark against ourselves.
Jamie:by the end of this conversation, you'll, you'll have changed your mind. You're not investing in you guys.
Adam:yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jamie:but, but so so especially, I guess if, if this is some, an entrepreneur who's done it before Absolutely. Or they, they really bring something unique from that industry that they understand. Smaller amounts than are possible for you guys. You, because you have raised a fund. This, it used to be Euro own money. You're investing as sort of a. Mini Angel Group, right?
Adam:Yeah. So Jam Jar started just as a sort of mini family office really. We, three of us didn't really know what we were gonna do after innocent, so we, we started to get approaches from people looking for investment. We actually quite enjoyed those conversations. So thought, let's, let's set, set it up whilst we're thinking of our next business idea. And sort of went from probably not, not enjoying it that much at first because you, it is the difference between being an operator and running everything and being in charge versus being an investor where you are not you, you, you are absolutely investing in other people's businesses.
Jamie:it's quite hard
Adam:Oh, it's, it's definitely hard and it's a big adjustment. And even though theoretically we knew that it was still quite tough to live it, day to day when you think people are doing or you'd want to do things in a different way, all you can do is influence and argue and debate rather than actually change it. And that's, you know, that can be quite frustrating sometimes. But what we did love, certainly I did, was that this breadth that we got really thinking deeply about not just, bottles of juice on shelves, but you know, might be pet food or it might be, medical, devices, or it might be car seats or it might be, car insurance. It's like actually, you start learning quite a lot about different industries, which are, fascinating, you know, that that's the, that's the gray matter building stuff that I really enjoy on this.
Jamie:and, you know, it's one of the, again, going back, one of the aspects of, of Innocent as an organization from very early on, because of the three of your minds, the intellectual robustness and, and capability was always supercharged. It's been very hard to find businesses with, that level of, of intellectual robustness since. How important is that when you're looking at these, the, these entrepreneurial teams that they've, they've got a real. A set of smarts on
Adam:de Definitely, definitely. But, but smarts in of itself isn't, isn't enough. You want people to be smart. It doesn't have to be educated smart, but it just has to be smart in the area that matters for the, for their business. and, we love people who, who are clear when they know stuff and when they don't know stuff and are, are, are confident enough to be able to say, I don't know this, but I'm going to work it out.
Jamie:Self-awareness is a, is a, is is a learnt trait for, for many of us.
Adam:Yeah. and because, you know, it shows an element of confidence. It's like, I don't need to pretend I know everything And it, it's funny, there's, there, there is a genre. who sort of has to present this. I, I'm in charge of everything. I know everything. And I, I, I can do it all. And actually just you know, frankly doesn't reflect the world.
Jamie:that's an interesting one. We'll come back to it when it, when it comes to, to your investment philosophy almost because that, that entrepreneur is almost the poster child of, of the venture capital community. But wanna come to Theran, talk about that transfer moment. altogether, did a, a session last, oh gosh, summer talking about, when it's time to bring in CEOs, when it's time to leave as a founder, when you know, and then how do you handle. Departure, that sense of loss, which is the best way I found to describe it. Mm-hmm. how did each of you handle that loss? Well, first of all, you know, strategically as a group, you, you handled it slightly by not really leaving.
Adam:Yes. we we handled, I, I think there was a number of important points. one, you know, we'd been in the business for 14 years by the time we stepped out. And actually, so each of us thought it was time to leave by then when we first did our investment deal with Koch, which set us on a path to, to exit. I don't think we were all aligned around wanting to leave at that point, or, or were, weren't convinced that was the right thing. By the time, it was time to step out. We, we were, each of the three of us were very, very happy to be doing so. because a, I think we'd, turned the business around, so we felt like we were leaving on a high rather than on a loan. b I think we felt it was in a good place for the future, Douglass and the rest of his team there to, to take it on and a good shareholder and cope who wanted it to grow,
Jamie:and wanted to have its independence
Adam:absolutely all that stuff that, that, that, that was really important, for us and for, for the team and for the future of the business, frankly. and, and three, I think we started to open our eyes to, there's another world out there of all this other stuff and actually really want to get into that. and, and you know what the, the sort of intellectual curiosity was like, I, I, I've, I've gotta think about something else. I can't just keep thinking about the stuff that frankly, it's important to keep this business really moving forward. And you need people who operate brilliantly. And that's what we built the team to have people who get a real kick from that operational excellence and, just making, brilliant smoothies day in, day out, make sure when they're on the shelves
Jamie:It's a fascinating, so, so, you know, coming back into this and, you know, looking at other people The intellectual curiosity that mind, that is curious is, is something that leads you to that robustness of thought in, in, your business that you appreciate. But it is also part of a personality that when it comes down to a certain point in a business of operating day by day, quarter by quarter, year by year, th there's no intellectual stimulation, less intellectual stimulation to be had. Yeah. Now, I think this is why entrepreneurs in in venture can hang on, because if it's still flying upwards at ridiculous speed Yeah. You know, every minute or every day is slightly different from the last one and so on. Yeah. But, so, but what's the balance here when you're looking for an, an entrepreneur and a founder who's got that intellectual curiosity and someone who's gonna stay the distance as an operator
Adam:I, I, think, I think you need, and this is why we look at teams, because I think you need both. I think you need someone who's, who's can see the future, can, can add the new chunks of business to steer it in the right direction for the first five, 10 years of the business. Which is, which is about that curiosity, which is about, thinking about the new, it is about being comfortable with the vaguery, but then you need someone who's actually operating it to make it work.
Jamie:it's the old ceo, COO O It's like Richard Branson always had the, the operators underneath
Adam:Absolutely. And, and that's been less important in a time. We we're moving forward a bit, but in a time where money has been. Relatively easy to raise. People haven't worried about the execution too much cuz money can fix a lot of things. and
Jamie:we can throw a team around this
Adam:Yeah, exactly. And actually that is no longer the case and execution, which has always been something that we, we've, focused in on is becoming more important I think, across the market.
Jamie:I'm interested in, in just a further exploration, we, Kim, going back to this investment decision, aren't we? Because the two things that you just described, the exemplar of the entrepreneurial vision. Yeah. Creative, you know, Richard Reid. Yeah. The exemplar of the operator. Yeah. you know, this is how we need to do it
Adam:it's going Yeah.
Jamie:we, the referee, no,
Adam:No. You gotta turn into money. And that's, that's, that's the thing. The system can work well. The vision can be brilliant, but if you're not making money, it doesn't matter.
Jamie:that's so the, the sales, the salesperson, now you are a salesperson in many ways, very natural salesperson. But actually, what is it that makes you. A salesperson.
Adam:funny. I don't really, I don't think myself as a salesperson at all, actually. and,
Jamie:let me put it another way. Do you like to lose?
Adam:No.
Jamie:Hmm.
Adam:Yeah. I'm competitive, but yeah. Plenty of people aren't, right.
Jamie:you more competitive than the others?
Adam:I dunno. I don't think so. I, I, think we're all pretty competitive, but but sort of in a, I actually a lot to say, I, I really like finding solutions to problems, commercial problems. So finding a, a win-win, a way of making something, you know, that works for us and works for a customer and I'm good with numbers. So I think the combination of those
Jamie:and, and how often do we see salespeople who are just, they got the gift of the gab, but actually that intellect that's required. To find the solution, to find the, the negotiated outcome that works for everybody. That's clever, frankly.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie:you've gotta have both to a certain extent.
Adam:think you need to be able to listen as well. Selling is actually about listening
Jamie:to, to, to the other side's needs, right? Yeah.
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. Because then you could, then you can work out the solution.
Jamie:Um, so a sense of, I I, I'm gonna go back to this question of a sense of loss. So was there a sense of loss?
Adam:leave? No. I I think actually I was, I was ready and then I, I was, I was happy with the outcome, happy with where it left. And I think what was hard was, okay, so what's next? It wasn't the sense of loss there, it was the, it was clear it was the right
Jamie:thing You were still very young. All three of you, you, you'd made a chunk of cash. Yeah. Was it what's next in terms of what I do with my time or, or were we getting philosophical about, you know, what's next? How, what's life about if I've gone achieved so much, so early?
Adam:I, I think it was definitely what's, what's my next gig work thing? and I wanted intellectual stimulation and, I wasn't going to sit down and do a PhD or something, something, so I, you know, The commercial world of the business world is sort of something I, I enjoy. So, it was what's gonna be next there? and and Jam j was strangely unfulfilling for the first couple of years. It was, yeah. It was really bec because of the point I made that we, you know, we, we weren't the owners. We were sort of the, the investors and we didn't know how to play the role of investors really. What were we doing? What are we just placing? Random bet. It felt like we were placing random best
Jamie:and you got invited in or were able to get into some amazing deals.
Adam:Yeah. Off
Jamie:the back of your success, people wanted you on their
Adam:shareholder Yeah. Which was, which was great and flattering and, and realized actually how helpful that was. But it only was a what, after a while you started forming the patterns and building the building blocks. What makes good investment decisions and what, what's the process that we should run on this? And, And, once you started getting into a pattern, rather than just making random bets, which is what it felt like at first mm-hmm. Then the enjoyment started to come because it was like, ah, okay, I actually, I can see this. Is, this is, there's a way of doing this.
Jamie:And again, three of you on three different journeys. at what point was it clear to all three of you? Oh, we found our new business rather than, but shouldn't we be looking at whatever was hot
Adam:Yeah. I th I think with it probably took four years, maybe, you know, so it wasn't instant, wasn't particularly quick. Now, the good thing was we, we, you know, we weren't pressured to have to work, do any of those things. We said we could, we could take it at the time
Jamie:I always remember one of the things Morris Pinto said to me very early on when I was writing that case study on you guys, and he said, what amazes me about these guys is how long they take on their decisions. I mean, you know, they sit in that room presenting PowerPoint to each other, find the next reason not to quite make the decision and move on and move on. but I tell you, I have never met a team with a high hit rate. Of good decisions. And I almost quoted him word for word there. Yeah. Because I thought it was a fascinating dichotomy of, of speed of decision making, which we know in, in business sometimes it's really important just to make a decision. Yeah. Rather than procrastinate. But he was calling it and saying, you know what the balance was Right. For these guys in, in their business. Now you took a long time deciding to quit your jobs and found innocent. Having for, you know, been talking for years about doing a business together and here you go, another three or four year period of talking about being investors
Adam:before you Yeah. Yeah. def definitely, definitely. but it's interesting when, when we started, then once we started coalesce around, actually we, we think we know what we're doing here and there's a process to do this and a pattern and, you know, we think we can actually genuinely add value to, to people's businesses. And I know how to interact with founders in a, in a way that's constructive rather than that then started to feel really good and the, the energy started to come, and then you start to get the old feeling of bouncing the ideas around each other and with a new team as well, with Katie. And, and, and then it became clear that actually with our own capital, we just didn't have enough capital to do justice to what we thought we could achieve in the area.
Jamie:was that part of the decision really to, to No. Cause it, the, the, the decision to do your, your own fund came after your sort of period of is this what we're going to
Adam:Oh yeah, definitely,
Jamie:Definitely. So you made, you had a decision saying, we are gonna stick jam jar's our thing,
Adam:jam jar's our thing. Yeah, Exactly. and then, And the next decision was, was actually, look, you know, we've got some great people in the team. We, we need to show commitment to, to people. We, we need to be able to keep these people and track new great ones. And it's slightly tougher to do if it's all just investing, you know, a pool of capital that may or may not be there. So there was a bit of team thing, there was a bit of, actually we just don't have enough capital to, to be able to back our winners really heavily. and therefore we are not as important to those founders as we could be, if we actually were a bigger part of their cap table. and we started to build relationships with LPs who were like liking the way we were thinking what we were doing. And so the whole thing was like, actually maybe we can. Fashion something here. and, and so we decided to raise a fund, which then took absolute ages because of co forever. But, but the good thing was time. We thought about it for a while. We thought about it for a long time. Then it was the prep of actually how do, what's the right structure? You know, is it a, a traditional fund? And we were gonna do, trying to do something completely different and actually ended up in a traditional fund structure because actually they're really, it is very tough to do it very different. And we went round the houses on that for ages. And then when we decided to do that, it then took a long time to, to, to not, not to raise the money actually weirdly, to do the detail on closing the money. That was, that was complex thing.
Jamie:It was. And, and then did, it surprised me how long it, it, it took sort of watching from the outsides. Mm-hmm. From the, from the conversations we'd had. I think your answer to the question is fascinating by the way, cuz your first answer there, as to why you moved to the fund was about people. Mm-hmm. Which at the end of the day, unless you've got a, an investor or you are a business owner who has a, a a rate of return requirement is, is almost the only reason to grow at any particular pace. Mm-hmm. Right. And you can't, you've gotta grow, you can't decline. But, you know, in the philosophy of why grow, and I had a lovely conversation with Tom Elliot, the founder of, pizza Pilgrims about this mm-hmm. Who has taken, you know, institutional money. So there is pressure to grow Yeah. But for whom, he'd rather not grow if it's not doing the right thing by his team. and you had some great people Yeah. Who frankly were doing a lot of the legwork Cuz you know, you're not, you're not in the, in, in the world of doing your own basic analysis anymore. You want analysts, you want, you've got, you've got people who you want to grow and develop and, and they're unlikely to do it doing your bit investments. Then the second one is, More ego. No ego's not the right reason, but, but to, to, it is partly ego. So I to really enjoy this work for me. So I don't mean ego in the negative way. I mean about enjoying the work. I need more power, more influence, more responsibility to come with our investments rather than just be the, the sort of people that get pulled in as part of round.
Adam:Yes. Yeah. I, it be, it became clear that the founders sort of enjoyed the conversations with us and we could, we felt like we could add stuff, but frankly we had too little money invested in any one deal to make it make sense, spending a lot of time. And the other side, the founders, we had two little money invest in, in their cap table for them to really listen to us rather than three or four other voices around a cap table. And so
Jamie:you were just advisors to be called on as and when. Yeah. And again, looking for your intellectual curiosity. you want to be more involved with some of the decision making or some of the naughty problems, it's unlikely to happen after a while.
Adam:Exactly.
Jamie:I get that. and, and and it's interesting coming back then to this question of the three operators who operated together in one business being three quarters of the partners in a, in a, in a venture capital fund where it's a very different role. Yeah. Investing versus operating and you are all the same operators. No, you're not, you're very different operators, but your same History. it's, it's not necessarily, again, the blueprint of, of venture capital team.
Adam:No, it's inter We do, whilst we all will, one of the four of us will lead on a deal. It's not like that deal. You know, only that person's and no one else gets involved. We actually pull each other in quite a lot into each other's deals. It's like, okay, there's a, there's, there's a, there's a manufacturing issue here. John, can you go and have a look at this? There's a brand thing here. Rich, come and do this workshop. We, We,
Jamie:we we at Urban Legend have benefited from John and we've benefited from Richard coming in and doing exactly those things. And it's brilliant, by the way, right? I mean it, but, but it is. Yeah, because, and, and this is the bit that I think, you know, people, people understand who are sort of part of your portfolios when they need someone to come in. Talk about marketing and creative. You've got. Best brains in the world. Yeah. For this. Yeah, definitely. In terms of stimulating your thinking. Yeah. and and same for, same for John. And actually same for you. We, you are always gonna get something very different. What do you miss? Not being, what do you miss being operators? what's the negative from a founder's point of view of the fact your former operators rather than investors. Do you think?
Adam:I think if we can be disciplined enough not to, not to say, oh, look, in my day or in my business, this is how you do it. And, and be kind of, too didactic about it. I'm not sure there is a massive downside. because actually we've just got more empathy with the position that founders are in. you know, we, we've been done that and we know that it, it can be really tough and the logic can be saying this, but, but the heart is saying that, and all those emotional decisions, the complexity of having big teams, all of that stuff is, is stuff we've lived and breathe. And so as long as we can, remember that it's their business and we are investors in helping them, then I think actually it's a, it's a pure positive.
Jamie:Now, you know, you could have described word for word the transitional challenge I had moving from CEO to chair. and you know, you have to keep reminding yourself of that. But equally you have to make that decision of when you do go in and say, I want to talk about this. Yeah, it's self-discipline, which, you know, the three of you have in, in bundles anyway, I should think. but it is, it is a, it is a requirement to sort of, as you say, know the right way of going. Cause otherwise you, the worst is you wouldn't get to add the value or you get to bloody be on top of these founders and they wouldn't wanna be with you
Adam:Yeah. Anymore. Yeah. And, and, and actually remaining very open to the fact that, You've got a lot that you can learn from people. You've backed people because you think they're great, and frankly, you'd be happy working for them. That's kind of a good test for, an investment. and, and they're gonna teach you something. So it's not just about stuff that you've done, and therefore you've gotta do that. I like
Jamie:Well, I mean, where's the learning in that? Where's the intellectual curiosity, satisfaction in just being the person giving all the answers. Hey. Let's, let's talk about your investment philosophy for a second. Mm-hmm. We, we already made a slight reference that, you know, it's not quite the traditional VC mentality. you're not constantly looking for the founder who wants to take over the entire world, create the next unicorn. We have to say decor now, you know, it's not but, you know, so, how do you differ fr from that point of view in terms of, you know, what's the deal that you might do that, that index wouldn't do or that, you know, some of the traditional big VCs wouldn't do?
Adam:Yeah, I mean versus the big guys, the fund returners for us is a far smaller scale outcome than a fund returner for someone like Index.
Jamie:for those who don't understand what that means, the fund returner a concept is that, you know, one out of 10 will actually make all the money because the risk is so high when you put your money into these early stage businesses, right.
Adam:the upside has gotta be big enough. So you've got a bit back businesses that can be big enough, frankly, scale, back back scale to, to, to, you know, huge scale.
Jamie:But, but so your, your, fund is small enough that a fund returner doesn't have to be,
Adam:doesn't doesn't have to be, you know, a Absolutely. Instead of, you know, a hundred billion global business. Yeah. That's just, you know,
Jamie:and most businesses aren't,
Adam:aren't, definitely, most businesses are not that.
Jamie:But, but it seems to me that there's a sort of, there's a perversity in the venture capital world of, of, you know, ever increasing size of funds being raised, which makes the requirement be, I need my unicorns. I need my unicorns. I suppose you get the new funds coming along. Filling in the gap is, is it, but is there enough funding for the bus, the normal businesses out there that
Adam:I think there's definitely enough, enough funding, I think, I think it's still there. I think it's just behaving in a very different way to, to, to how behave for the last 10 years. Mm-hmm. so look, Valuations aren't more sensible, frankly.
Jamie:We're talking now post crash, right? Yeah. We're talking Today,
Adam:Today, Yeah. Go on. Yeah. So, you know, coming from the big public markets through to, the growth rounds, the, the, the valuations have by it. Yeah. It's hot as halved, let's say, or more. And and that trickles down through the whole market. It doesn't mean that you can't get good valuations for seed stage businesses at all actually, cuz
Jamie:what just means you have to adjust your expectations of
Adam:a fact. Absolutely. You have to adjust expectations, There are not as many people investing certainly in consumer. Venture than there were, there was lots of people who, you know, it's all we do. Mm-hmm. so we are, we, we are gonna be doing it. Mm-hmm. but there's lots of people who sort of drifted in maybe from, you know, B2B SaaS areas or other areas,
Jamie:They're re they're retrenching to their is that the word?
Adam:Yeah. Retrenching to their, their, to their core. which is what you do in a in a, in typically in a downturn. So, so there's fewer people playing in this space, which means deals take longer to do. Supply
Jamie:a supply and demand curve going on
Adam:There is, there is, but there's still enough money to drive good valuations on. See, don't wrong. You can still, it's not like it's terrible time for, for founders actually. I think for a certain type of founder, it's a much better time.
Jamie:much better time.
Adam:Definitely. So, you know, there, there was a huge premium in a way for people who could sell a huge dream, not worry about the execution and, and, and a brilliant set of salespeople, you
Jamie:to be that almost too close to the line. Yeah. I know at all.
Adam:Absolutely And not Oh, on the edge. Let, let's face sometimes over the line. You know, that's
Jamie:problem. We won't go down that line.
Adam:Yeah, no. So, so, so, you know, and there was huge returns for people like that. And so, and most people aren't. most people actually kind of, you know, really want to understand where they can back up what they're saying. And, you know, how am I gonna do this? I'm not just, just gonna say, I can do it without really thinking about it. I'm gonna actually, how I'm gonna make this happen. And those people were probably getting slightly drowned out, in the last 10 years.
Jamie:And, for those who perhaps weren't naturally feeling that way, they felt, they also to come in and say, here's how I'm going to turn the entire, which by the way, is still by the traditional VCs, how they're, they're talking as they're creating industries and they're creating industry leaders and globally and all the rest. Okay. So, so there are, there are changes afoot. Valuations are more realistic from
Adam:investor's point of view.
Jamie:Yeah. But from a founder point of view, you don't have to not be yourself.
Adam:Definitely not. No. Absolutely.
Jamie:fact, what else has changed?
Adam:Well, the, as I said, the time to do deals has changed. So, you know, there, there was a time when, you know, anything that sounded like a decent deal was gonna be done in a week or two. you know, it was just, and people were getting checks for five 10 for in no time at all. So no one was doing the diligence, let's face it. There was no way that anyone was doing the, the sort of venture
Jamie:capital and due diligence are not usually words anyway. as in, I've seen, you know, the private side of
Adam:things
Jamie:As, as, as I'm sure you have, and it's
Adam:oh, it's very different. Absolutely. But you know, the over
Jamie:overkill.
Adam:Arguably, but the return models are completely different. You know, You can't lose, any money in in private. You've got to, you've gotta get a return on every money
Jamie:so you have to pick up every stone and look under it.
Adam:Absolutely. Absolutely. Was eventually can't do that because,
Jamie:you do at an early stage from a due diligence point of view that you weren't doing in these two week deals? I think this is this is a very relevant and interesting insight for, for people raising money.
Adam:Yeah. So, so I suppose it's sort of going back to the very beginning. So the sort of level of detail that we went into on an innocent plan 25 years ago, there's no reason that stuff can't be relevant now. Like, make sure you properly understand how you, if you've got a product, how you're gonna make it, how are you gonna market it, why it's better than everyone else's. Where you gonna sell it, what the price works are gonna be, All of that, stuff that, you know, it sort of gets waived through on three PowerPoint slides or has been for the last, last few years. or
Jamie:Or, or even, simply we'll figure that out later. Exactly. Because there's enough money to follow this through. There's three. Exactly. there's nothing necessarily wrong with that model. I do wanna say,
Adam:Yeah.
Jamie:What do you, you know, your it, your own investment philosophy and, and strategy ain't gonna go back properly anytime soon to, and you weren't really there anyway. Were you?
Adam:Well, I mean, I think our, our, you know, our definitely informs the way we invest. So, you know, the way innocent raised money, small amount of money, really frugal, you know,
Jamie:great business plan. know, aiming to get to breakeven as soon as you blooming cam because you only had 250 grand.
Adam:Exactly. once you get breakeven, your masters of your own destiny
Jamie:we're talking a long time ago here. The concept of you follow your seed with your series A, with your series did not exist. and it wasn't even on your radar.
Adam:No, because it was, you know what, once we're, once we're at profitability, we'll basically invest back pretty much everything we are making through that year to stay breakeven. But that's our investment rather than sort of is saying, actually we're gonna go below the line and keep raising external capital. Cuz it wasn't so easy to, to do so. It didn't really come across our
Jamie:So, so, the world, the world's going back a little bit to some good stuff as far as your, as you guys are concerned. Cause it's what you knew. And by the way, your five year financial forecast, certainly the top line beat of it is the only business plan in the history of the planet that was pretty much met. partly because it didn't feel like it had to show a hundred million pound revenue in five
Adam:Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah. and simply because I guess the research that went into it was so
Adam:robust. Yeah. But it felt ridiculously ambitious from a standing start to do what? 7 million quid after three. I mean, 7 million quid was such a vast, unimaginable amount of money in so many smoothies to be able to sell. It. Just, it, you know, it felt horribly ambitious from the beginning. But actually once, you know, to your point, we, we broke it down and worked out how you literally store by store. You could get there and, and it worked. And it worked.
Jamie:How else? and we've talked a lot about how the innocent, this has been exactly what I wanted by the way, terms sort of, we are learn learning about jam jar, But sort of touching on the bits of the innocent story that really influenced it. Anything else? How did the near death experiences you sometimes describe it, how did that affect or how does that affect your attitude?
Adam:Well, I think, I think, that there's a, there's a few things there. So, so the first is, understanding how quickly things can change. and death experience went from being a business that was absolutely sort of flying in 2007 to on its knees by mid 2008 and desperately needing money. and, and actually it was still really our realization of it was not until Q2 2008 that we were in real trouble, and by by Q three we were in real trauma. So it was, it it went so quickly. and so I think there's, the council we give our founders is that sort of healthy paranoia to be looking at those leading indicators that are always, you know, that hopefully will give you the alarm bells of whether good stuff or bad stuff is, is around the
Jamie:corner. Healthy paranoia, Healthy that goes along with naive intelligence. As a as a, new phrase of mine, how else does that sort of play out then? So, be alert. Be, be ready for the change. And by the way, margin structures have a huge part to play in that too. A huge part to play in the restaurant industry. It's even, even worse, I suspect, in terms of what a percentage drop in revenue
Adam:Yes. With a co fixed cost base that you've got, I suppose.
Jamie:for instance, versus a, I don't know, a software business with 80% gross margins.
Adam:Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so so there's that. and then I think there's the willingness to be flexible about your, your sholis, your, your, unbreakable, sort of tenants. So, you know, we were clear. We didn't want to raise money, you know, that was not gonna be, you know, we wanted to say completely independent. and that was completely the wrong thing, to stick to because of the plan that we would've, that we wrote that would've meant us staying independent was such a depressing plan. Mm-hmm. In terms of cutting and saving and, and, and taking us away from our stated, you know, vision of being Europe's favorite little juice company, which is what we were aiming to be. That, that it was completely the wrong thing. So actually unwinding that and totally changing our mindset and saying, you know what? We do need to go and raise money. And, and that might might seem such an obvious point, but at the time it was deeply ingrained in the way we were thinking.
Jamie:founders, are very clear on things that they believe. Yeah. And sometimes they've got to that belief so many years ago with or without analysis, and knowing when to drop some of them So challenge your, you know, be open to, to challenging, It's
Adam:challenging those, those fundamental tenets of what you what you believe, and, stuff changes quickly. And so there be, be prepared to react. Don't noodle. This is where decision making actually, you know, We did have to move fast and I think we, you know, we moved fast enough cause the business survived, but it, we probably could have moved, We definitely could have moved faster.
Jamie:analysis paralysis, a classic issue for consultants who become operators. And two thirds of you were consultants. Yeah. Yeah. what, what do you think of consultants turned entrepreneurs that walked through your door today? do you love them? Do you not love them? Do you have any particular,
Adam:No, not, not, partic. I, I think you, you've just got, you've gotta test the team in total against the same that we do all the teams. So, you know, if they're all ex consultants who don't have any experience in the industry, but are fundamentally smart. probably not enough. You want someone who, who's got that industry experience, that operating experience as well as the, the, the sort of intellectual spots that we, we talked about at the beginning. You sort of want that diverse set of, skills.
Jamie:in, in, the one recording I could find of you. you described, then, which I suspect that was pre-crash, that your job, you're just a glorified HR consultancy or a, or something along those lines in terms of you, you learnt,
Adam:HR consultancy. You've
Jamie:but you've, you learnt that that's the number one and and to put a lot more effort into it. And, and you've done, you've been, you about it. You've been analytical and trying to work out what the characteristics are, et cetera, et cetera. But it seems like having gone from gone to sort of really focus all on that, now we're back in a world where you. going to dig into the economics and the business model and the, and, and the, and do the due diligence a little bit harder than,
Adam:yeah, I mean actually the people and team bit has always been the number one, but it's not in enough in of itself. you absolutely need a product, you need to be solving a problem and with a product that's better and different. That's definitely number two. And then the financial opportunity has got to be there, which includes this, the business model, the, the numbers, the timing, all of
Jamie:And the, the right amount of money is being asked at the right time. Yeah. the world got a little bit ahead of itself over the last few years doing,
Adam:When, when people are rushing to put, deploy money and put it to work, then all that sort of good structure goes out the window,
Jamie:okay, so I want one. I'm gonna go back to the end. Some days I want one thing you're most proud of and one thing you do differently.
Adam:I think the thing most proud of is what the team that we grew, both the team that's still, that's there and the team that has then gone off to do other things. The the entrepreneurial things. The,
Jamie:the podcast
Adam:podcast hosts. Exactly. All these wonderful things. I think that's, you know, when we do a meetup and, you know, every five years we might sort of go back and see people, it's just like people are doing so many fascinating things. And I think it was a real sort of hotbed of, can do, not necessarily just entrepreneurialism, but just sort of positivity and optimism and just go and make good stuff happen. And that's, that's probably the thing. It's actually not the drinks or any of the stuff that we made, it's the people that did it
Jamie:It is quite extraordinary. And, and it, to a certain extent, you see it in the really big successful tech world, that, you know, the businesses and the, the entrepreneurs that are spun out from that Yeah. From that world and, and the enormous clusters that get built around it. the impact of innocent has not just been the fact that the entrepreneurs that have come out, but the entire food and drink industry is so much more entrepreneurial. Here, i, I partly because of, of your success, there's no doubt in my mind that clustering effect definitely had a thing. But it is that they've gone on to do so many different and varied things in their own ways. Yeah. And so many of them have. How, why did that happen?
Adam:I, I think we, we hired people who had the value set that we wanted, which included that sort of entrepreneur and optimism and just go and do, do stuff, make stuff happen. We wanted them to make stuff happen within the business, but then at some point in people's careers, it's right for do, do stuff outside of the business and that's what they went and did. So I think it was, I think it was, came from fundamentally hiring people with those values and then having a good model for how you make stuff happen. So the processes work, the business worked and people kind of learnt some great practice, which then they felt they could put into practice themselves and build on and improve, frankly.
Jamie:So, I mean, I don't know if I've ever said thank you.
Adam:I dunno what you'd say. Thank you for
Jamie:letting me be part of that. And I think others would, would say exactly the same. but I'd also add to what you've said about why this group of people has come out. I think it's hard, it's easy to forget sometimes how out there and different innocent really was back in those days, I mean, sure. The marketeers get it. Oh, this brand's so different. It talks naturally and does different things. Great and brilliant by the way. But that translated into an organization, a business organization that was human and operated fundamentally differently, not to what we see today. I mean, you, you you were B Corp before B Corp. Yeah. You were human before, you know, business worked out that it could be a human endeavor. Yeah. and I still, for the life of me, don't understand how you, ended up there. cuz it wasn't a part of the business to have a different way of operating business that would somehow be this, it's a exemplar and give other people this, this belief that they could do things differently
Adam:No
Jamie:businesses a force for good. Where did it all come from? For goodness
Adam:It came incrementally over time thinking hard about how we do every single thing that we do. Not just saying, oh, this is the way it's done. Let's, let's just copy that. you know, it was just challenging, you know, let's do it in the best possible way, in the way it feels most natural for us. Because it
Jamie:the, you know, we are making natural drinks, therefore we need
Adam:to be No, no, it wasn't. that's
Jamie:a, post sort of, you know why?
Adam:Because I think, I think we just had the opportunity to build it from the ground up and it's like, well, why don't you build it exactly as you want it and think it should be done rather than, because this is the way it's always been done. We probably over-engineered far too many things actually. Sure. and, and the point probably noodled far too long on certain decisions, but actually it ended up with a sort of, just make sure you put the effort in to do it. Right.
Jamie:you you were not just friends, you were the best of friends. I'm I'm trying to sort of draw a line from some of you know, how I'm trying to imagine in those early days, you know, well before I got involved, you're sitting around a table trying to figure this thing out. and what is it about your relationships and your personal values that sort of end up here?
Adam:I think we've probably all wanted to, you know, in each area people wanted to go look, actually I'm, I've done it like this. So there was a bit of like, actually I wanna do my bit well and better that
Jamie:it's not the best of friends, it's competitive friends. It's
Adam:competitive friends, but it is, there's, yeah, there's definitely a healthy competition there. Or, or probably also the thing, not, not, wanting to do it wrong, be slightly shit at it. You know, we have the don't be, don't be shit.
Jamie:don't be shit. And actually, perhaps the insecurity that comes from being, outside the industry, having never done it before, there's also a bit of that that says That's
Adam:comes in, is how do we do it? well, rather than just saying, oh, I know the shortcut. You, you sort of think it through from first principles. No, that's not always a great use of time. But
Jamie:first principle thinking is actually a characteristic, a personality characteristic, that you all three share,
Adam:Is that right?
Jamie:Oh, I dunno. I don't, I'm done a psychological analysis.
Adam:no. I was wondering whether you had,
Jamie:but, but, the idea that, you can figure this out and, and, and, and come to figure it out. that was very prevalent. And probably also in the people that you hired. Yes. Yes. For, on the whole, I mean, that whole, you remember that whole, sort of, you know, you adopted the measurement, consulting interview style at some point. Yeah. for, for sort of finding the people who can break down problems and solve them. Yeah. I just, I don't, it's a really interesting story because I look at businesses today, at various stages and talk about culture And I, I've come to a, a real sad conclusion that actually this is, you don't, you can't engineer it as you've probably improve it a little bit. But at the very end of the day, the culture is gonna be established by the minu Shai, as you say, daily, day-to-day decisions you take, and therefore the culture is gonna be established from very day one, just by your personality and your co-founders personalities and the, the, split of responsibility and house within them.
Adam:definitely, definitely. The, The, The, the culture fundamentally will reflect the, the, the founder's belief system and values. Absolutely.
Jamie:Okay. so just before we get into your three things, we have a world, adventure world in crisis. We have, investors. Not doing new investments, protecting their cash to support their investees. We have, companies who were on one belief system in terms of growth and losses and being able to fund your way to the future who have, will had to tighten the belts sometimes, pivot their strategies. first of all, how's your portfolio been with regard to that? What's your advice been, to them? And then, you know, maybe we can get to the, you know, today for those businesses, who are going to run outta cash before the market's open up again. what are they gotta do to, to raise their money?
Adam:so, so in terms of our portfolio, it's doing pretty well. we're fortunate in most of the businesses got well funded whilst funding was, was available. Mm-hmm. and then sort of adapted the spend and burn rate so that, they could make that last a long long time or make it last indefinitely. I do by getting to, to profitability. So,
Jamie:and, and you've been firm with your advice to portfolio companies that sort of, let's get on the path to profitability people.
Adam:Yeah, very very much so. And we, we, we did a big event for the portfolio just before Christmas actually, sort of talking about managing through a recession. Some of the stuff that we learned through through our near death experience as it turns. You know, quarter one this year has been actually much better trading wise for most businesses than we, we feared it would be. So it was, it was, I think a lot of them were left our Christmas event, slightly depressed,
Jamie:come to the Ger Jar Christmas party.
Adam:and, but, you know, hopefully it sparked a bit of healthy paranoia, which actually, you know, has, has meant that,
Jamie:I think we'd all like to be overdelivering up against our plans in quarter one than, than Underdelivering So, in this world, yeah. But you're right, the economy so far has held up a little bit stronger, but that doesn't change the fact that there aren't, there isn't gonna be a awful lot of follow on funding rounds.
Adam:Definitely not. So getting to that, getting to that position of, of profitability or clear, clear route to profitability is, is, is vital. and, and I suppose because new investors come into rounds are harder to get, getting, getting great relationships with your existing investors is, is vital. and probably being a bit more open, honest about how things are going, where things are good, where things are is really important. People don't wanna get
Jamie:transparency, was always such a big part of the innocent culture. Definitely. that you had, you can't impose culture onto your portfolio companies. How do you handle this sort of, I don't want a lack of transparency because it's almost an a need sometimes for, for entrepreneurs to, to, to not over, you know, to have confidence in what they're doing and not over worry their investors.
Adam:Yeah.
Jamie:sort of being too open the doors to people who aren't that close to it is a dangerous thing to do.
Adam:Definitely. I mean, it is one of the things we, we, we, we sort of try and test for early on in terms of whether we're gonna do an investment, whether we really, you know, can have subs, you know, deep, substantive conversations with people and they're gonna be honest about the stuff that they know or that's going well versus the stuff they don't know Or isn't going well. if you
Jamie:the, the, the door, the doors closed during that conversation, it's
Adam:that's that's a big red flag. That's a big red flag. and once again, it's one of those things that probably you could, if you are a great, good enough salesperson, you could avoid, you know, tripping up on that now, I think it's, it's slightly tougher because more time is being spent in that, on, on those deals and therefore it's gonna get uncovered.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. And of course, for this goes back to the nature of the entrepreneur. Being honest with yourself is where you have to start. And in the past you had to believe, you, you, you, those entrepreneurs that were, were changing the world, quote unquote, were drinking their own Kool-Aid. Because they had to, because they had to constantly sell this vision to everybody they can. And, you, after a while, you just, you just believe it. Absolutely. so the portfolios, not overly worrying you.
Adam:No. I mean, it's, it's, you know, but, but things that are, I suppose things that have been affected are sort of the bigger capital items, you know, cars, mortgages, those those sorts of bigger commitments. So businesses that are more exposed to those definitely are fi finding that harder because people are being more thoughtful, cautious, about making those types of investments, themselves. So.
Jamie:And let, let's go to your three things cuz we, we we're, we're pretty much on time. Three things for, for raising, for raising finance in this market.
Adam:One of them is The fir. The first one is, probably relevant at all times, but I just don't want to have it lost because it's, it's, the current environment. Be absolutely clear on the problem, the consumer problem you're solving, and be clear sighted about why your solution is better and different or easier for people. we see too many businesses. I've got a good idea, but are a bit muddled about what it really, what it really does for people and why people are going to use it. And you can have loads of slides and loads of justification, but actually fundamentally, if it doesn't, it's not better, different, or easier or cheaper. It's just not going to work for people. And so it's a better master. It's a be, but is it, is it better on the dimensions that anyone cares about? so, so just be and be rigorous on that because rigorous, this is how I get actionable. test it against, loads of different people. ask them, is this, is this something you, you would actually use rather than you can imagine research, required my, my market research. Maybe It's not necessarily just about market research. It's, it's, I suppose it's, deeply understanding that the consumer. Needs that is being answered by your product. There's lots of businesses that come up with people go, oh, that's a good idea. Would you use it? No, I could,
Jamie:I could, but I could, imagine it. This is, This is the debate around product market fit and, and again, it's meant to have been figured out long before. but, but often, often it hasn't been sufficiently proven. And you're right, it doesn't have to be market research. It doesn't, the numbers, showed, I mean, cohort analysis for DTC is all about proving it,
Adam:Absolutely, absolutely. You know, demonstrate through the numbers, not rather than research if you can, but it depends. At the early stage, you might not have too much, but provide me the evidence, and don't, and don't. Wave your hand. It's like, oh, these comp, they're just not as good at these competitors. These are the ones. It's like, okay, why? What is it that you do better and different? That's easier to use? That's, that's, and people just skip that step because they, they're excited about their idea.
Jamie:okay. So, you know, don't forget this bit. Investors today are gonna want to really Yeah. See the evidence.
Adam:Yeah. Second thing I would. Prove that you've done a lot with a little, that you are fundamentally frugal entrepreneurs. There was this whole thing about boots strapping businesses, you know, 10, 20 years ago and that that sort, of,
Jamie:I mean, you, you guys are swimming in 250,000
Adam:pounds, not only boots strapping at all. exactly. exactly. So We, we had loads. but as we touched on earlier, the, the the returns have been there for people who aren't necessarily frugal. Cause there've been money out there. and money, money can solve a lot of problems. If that isn't the case, then, then you need to be frugal. And even if it is the case, you retain more of your business if you are frugal rather than diluting. So it's, it's good discipline anyway, so think through how you can get stuff for cheap, for free. Find the shortcuts. It's that, that frugality in early stages of business is, is, is fundamentally what will give you an investor's returns. So,
Jamie:it is, it is that frugality. Even for some of the further along businesses today, that is their survival strategy. And so if you are not naturally a frugal person or you go through phases in your life, now's the time.
Adam:Yeah.
Jamie:Although it'd be really great if you are a naturally frugal person right now. Yeah, Definitely. It's your world. It's your
Adam:your world. It's your world. Definitely.
Jamie:And because it does, it affects your day to day, it affect, you know, the just simply saying, but why would I spend money on that?
Adam:Yeah. Money's difficult to earn. It's hard to make money. Right. So, so
Jamie:It's been free for so long.
Adam:It's been, it's been so, you know, the rates have been so low. it's been very difficult to get a return on anything. So you might as well place big bets now you can leave it the bank and earn 5%. People are, people are much more, please. Absolutely
Jamie:You can, you can leave it in several banks. Spread very thinly. Because you've learned about treasury
Adam:management. Exactly.
Jamie:okay. So prove, prove your beef frugal and prove prove it.
Adam:yeah, yeah, Yeah. Demonstrate it, you know, demonstrate that you've frugal, uh, you know, from this, the fa friends and family round that you've done show you've done a
Jamie:So I've, look, I've invent. New glass. Mm-hmm. I can prove to you that it's actually what people need. Yeah. And, uh, I'm not spending any money. This doesn't sound very exciting though. So I mean, you give me your money now. what's what's your third thing here?
Adam:God. So I need something that's really exciting.
Jamie:I'm going to assume there's a, there's a really exciting opportunity still in this business somewhere. I mean, should we take that as red?
Adam:take that as red but actually this is exciting. The market's big. All that great stuff. All that is great stuff. These are these are the more practical things, um, exactly. exactly. And I'd like to give you what you asked for. Thank you. I think the, third on this one is
Jamie:clearly making it up as you got along.
Adam:No, I've actually written some words down. Oh. it touched back on something we spoke about earlier. Be honest about what you know and what you don't know, how you're gonna work stuff out. And if you don't know it, the, the bullshitting will fine. Doesn't matter. We'll get through it, da da da. Actually, I don't think cuts much ice at the moment. So that, that honesty, that transparency, that confidence to say what you don't know, that confidence to say, actually we, but we're working out like this. That for us is big brownie points. And I think probably for, lots of investors,
Jamie:it's a tricky one. This as in a hundred percent have, you know, when I left Tom Dicks my last full-time job and I started doing my plural world and it got me back into venture capital businesses again. And I mean, the first one I was in, I've just, I looked at some of the, communication to investors in horror
Adam:because what? It was just misleading.
Jamie:I mean, You can't even describe it as believing their own Kool-Aid. It's what you need to do to get the, investor over the line kind of attitude. Yeah. which of course is totally unacceptable. And, and, and I'm painting, I'm painting a very dark picture of it, but at the same time, we don't know a lot of stuff. Right. And it's great to say, I don't know, but if I, if, if the answer to, you know, what's the revenue going to be this year is, I don't know. You're not gonna be happy with that either? no, I don't know. I mean, who knows Adam, but there is, who knows? It could be this, it could be this. Let's just go and have some fun.
Adam:Well, no. And you know, if you're building a, you know, a software program, there's gonna be no, there's no revenue for the first year. So the answer's gonna be, I it's zero. Right. It doesn't matter. So,
Jamie:okay. But, but in, in, in, this world of, of setting ambitions and setting, setting goals, right? We, we have to have something that is exciting enough otherwise when none of us are around the table.
Adam:But my point actually applies the other way round, which is the best entrepreneurs also say, I don't know that. And actually I don't care about that and that's why I don't care about it. and being to find out or I haven't gonna find out because it's not important. it's not
Jamie:important. today, but it will
Adam:not important today or it'll be important then. And that, that it's not
Jamie:just throwing your hands up in the air going, I
Adam:I dunno. Exactly. it's, it's, and, and that's where you get, you, you separate people who, who, who sort of probably really have it from those who, you know, might not. And that's, that I think is, is key in these times, especially because deals are taking longer to do and therefore you're more likely to get, tested on these things,
Jamie:get tested on these things, and it, it's, you know, the world of private equity that, that I know so well where deals are really long, you know, one of the most important rules is whatever you say is gonna happen during that time has to happen. Otherwise it's gonna risk the entire thing. When you deal window of closing, it's a couple of weeks versus several months. Absolutely. what's your advice on how long before you run outta cash? You should be out in the market starting the prop. I mean, you know, of course everyone should be fundraising all the time, but you know, a formal, let's take the story out now. How much cash can I have in the bank before I need to worry about it?
Adam:You, so you want nine months? Really? Probably 12, but yeah. Nine. Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah. no. no, You want
Adam:nine?
Jamie:we're gonna call it there. that's very practical. And actionable advice. thank you very much Mr. Mell. it was a Nice Look, it, it, it's always nice to chat. It's normally done over lunch rather than with microphone in front of you. There were a couple of things we didn't talk about, I'd love to talk about, but it's it's maybe, maybe maybe I'll come back for more.
Adam:If, If, if anyone listens to this, then we, we can maybe do a follow up.
Jamie:the main job of these podcast cup. And, and again, coming back to why you are here and why I'm here, is for our members who are part of altogether, and what we're trying to do to help them. If other people are listening in and, finding value in them, first of all, come join altogether and get, get more of this, and then some. but regardless, we hope it's a value and it wouldn't be possible without people like you Breaking all the rules and doing podcast interviews and,
Adam:you know,
Jamie:next time I'll have you on camera and you know, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll, put, we'll put Richard out the job. That'll
Adam:a while.